Prisoners of War
Nov. 20th, 2010 04:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
anteros_lmcEarlier this week in the comments to her fic The Deafness of Angels ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
eglantine_br kicked off a discussion on prisoners of war. eglantine_br asked:
Obviously Archie's escapes failed. I am thinking maybe he was not part of a team, which appears to be really essential. If not, why not? Why didn't the other prisoners like him....
I've read a little bit about the experiences of of POWs during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, but not as much as I would like as it's a topic that fascinates me.eglantine_br recommended reading Escape from France: A Narrative of the Hardships and Sufferings of Several British Subjects Who Effected Their Escape from Verdun. I haven't read this one but it sounds fascinating and it's available from googlebooks :) I've also just got my paws on another account Escape from the French: Captain Hewson's Narrative 1803 - 1809, I haven't read it yet but it has several contemporary etchings and illustrations of the fortress of Bitche which I'll post later.
My main sources when I wrote Flotsam were George Vernon Jackson and William Henry Dillon's accounts of repeated escape attempts from various French prisons including Verdun and Bitche and their trials and tribulations at the hands of the French and British authorities following their release. Jackson and Dillon's accounts are included in an anthology of first hand accounts from the age of sail, which sadly isn't available online but I've already written a couple of summaries of their experiences: Damn 'em Jackson, They Spoiled My Dancing and Every Man Will Do His Duty.
There were many factors that influenced how POWs were treated, most notable of which was rank. There is no comparison between how officers and "common seamen" were treated. Jackson writes of officers held at Bitche ordering clothes and suites of furniture from Paris while the "lower class of English prisoners" were
A 1789 Parliamentary report on the treatment of prisoners of war describes the awful conditions common seamen were held in at Pontanezan prison near Brest. Up to a thousand men were crammed into a room only thirty feet wide and three hundred feet long and provided with meat rations that were "nothing but carrion". However the officers, including those of the Amazon frigate, were held in a separate hall and provided with "good fresh beef, white bread and a bottle of good claret daily". They were also allowed to visit town in the morning and return in the evening.
Status or designation also seem to have been critical. Dillon was not officially classed as a POW and was denied the privileges that were afforded to captive officers. Both the French authorities and the British Admiralty refused to award him the pay he was due as they viewed him as an illegal detainee rather than a POW, despite the fact he was detained while on Admiralty business. Dillon did eventually get the money he was owed but not before his family had to sell an estate to cover his prison expenses.
Parole was also an important factor. Many paroled officers seem to have lived relatively comfortable lives at large in the community.nodbear can tell you all about Captain Bergeret's extended stay with his captor, a certain Sir Edward Pellew. And Lieutenant Ben Littlehales of the Amazon was accommodated by Raymond de Lacrosse, captain of the Droits de L'Homme, the French 74 driven on shore and wrecked by the Amazon and the Indefatigable. Jackson's many escape attempts are variously helped and hindered by numerous paroled officers some of whom viewed his behavior as risky at best. Officers who broke parole were seen as being quite beyond the pale. Dillon refused to acknowledge a fellow POW on their return to England as the man had broken his parole. When Jackson is accused of breaking parole by a French officer he is affronted and argues that he has never been paroled and therefore is quite entitled to continue trying to do his duty to escape.
Jackson is also aided and abetted by numerous French citizens during his repeated escape attempts. Their motivations for assisting "the enemy" are many and varied. Some, both common and aristocratic, are clearly in opposition to the revolutionary government, others have motivations closer to home. One man who helps Jackson has a son in prison in England and he hopes that if he helps Jackson to make it back to England he will plead for this son's release. However many people appear to have provided assistance to these escapees simply on the grounds of common humanity and desire to help a fellow man in need.
You also have to wonder about some of the guards though. Jackson writes of guards selling prisoners alcohol, opium and uniforms, all of which proved very handy when trying to escape!
Those who did break parole or who repeatedly attempted to escape were classed as deserters who had all the privileges afforded to POWs withdrawn, regardless of rank. Deserters were habitually chained and seem to have been treated as little more than common criminals.
eglantine_br noted that successful escapes usually involved groups of prisoners working together and Jackson's story certainly backs this up. However one man who escaped with Jackson was advised by friends to abandon him as they considered Jackson's ideas of escape as "too romantic”.
In order to deal with the increasing numbers of prisoners held on both sides of the channel the British and French set up cartels to facilitate their exchange. In Britain these exchanges were managed by the Transport Board. Prisoners were exchanged for others of equal rank andnodbear and I have seen short but moving letters written from Quimper prison by Robert Carthew Reyolds, captain of the Amazon where he talks of his despair that no suitable French prisoner has been found to enable his exchange.
The circumstances of capture also had a significant impact on prisoners' chances of release or exchange. Those who were captured in brave or gallant action or who helped to save the lives of enemy crews at sea were often granted early release. This is essentially what happened to the officers and crew of the Amazon which was wrecked alongside the Droits de L'Homme.
In addition to exchange, I also believe that some POWs, particularly wealthy and aristocratic ones, could be ransomed by their families but to be honest I have no source for this.
So in answer toeglantine_br's original question I think it's quite likely that if Archie made repeated attempts to escape he may have been classed as deserter. This would have resulted in the withdrawal of privileges and parole and it's likely that his name would not have appeared on lists of POWs put forward for exchange. Also if Archie's escape attempts were seen as being reckless or "romantic", which I'm sure after four attempts must increasingly have been the case, then it's quite possible that fellow prisoners would have wanted nothing to do with him. Poor Archie :( Thank goodness Hunter came and sat on him!
Sorry this was supposed to be a short post but it got a bit out of hand :}
References
Anonymous, (1811), Escape from France: A narrative of the hardships and sufferings of several British subjects who effected their escape from Verdun. With an appendix, containing observations on the policy and conduct of Buonaparte towards British subjects, Vernor, Hood and Sharpe, Edinburgh.
Brett-Jones, A., Ed., (1981), Escape from the French. Captain Hewson's Narrative 1803-1809, Hodder and Stoughton, Exeter.
King, D. and Hattendorf, J.B., (1997), Every Man Will Do His Duty: An Anthology of First-hand Accounts from the Age of Nelson 1793 – 1815, Conway Maritime Press.
Report On Treatment of Prisoners of War, House of Commons Sessional Papers of the Eighteenth Century, Land Revenue, Prisoners of War, Fisheries, 1797-98, (118) 105 - 106.
eglantine_br kicked off a discussion on prisoners of war. eglantine_br asked:Obviously Archie's escapes failed. I am thinking maybe he was not part of a team, which appears to be really essential. If not, why not? Why didn't the other prisoners like him....
I've read a little bit about the experiences of of POWs during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, but not as much as I would like as it's a topic that fascinates me.
eglantine_br recommended reading Escape from France: A Narrative of the Hardships and Sufferings of Several British Subjects Who Effected Their Escape from Verdun. I haven't read this one but it sounds fascinating and it's available from googlebooks :) I've also just got my paws on another account Escape from the French: Captain Hewson's Narrative 1803 - 1809, I haven't read it yet but it has several contemporary etchings and illustrations of the fortress of Bitche which I'll post later. My main sources when I wrote Flotsam were George Vernon Jackson and William Henry Dillon's accounts of repeated escape attempts from various French prisons including Verdun and Bitche and their trials and tribulations at the hands of the French and British authorities following their release. Jackson and Dillon's accounts are included in an anthology of first hand accounts from the age of sail, which sadly isn't available online but I've already written a couple of summaries of their experiences: Damn 'em Jackson, They Spoiled My Dancing and Every Man Will Do His Duty.
There were many factors that influenced how POWs were treated, most notable of which was rank. There is no comparison between how officers and "common seamen" were treated. Jackson writes of officers held at Bitche ordering clothes and suites of furniture from Paris while the "lower class of English prisoners" were
"placed in the souterraines, where they reigned supreme and legislated for their community upon principals of their own, administering reward or punishment to all who deserved one or the other"
A 1789 Parliamentary report on the treatment of prisoners of war describes the awful conditions common seamen were held in at Pontanezan prison near Brest. Up to a thousand men were crammed into a room only thirty feet wide and three hundred feet long and provided with meat rations that were "nothing but carrion". However the officers, including those of the Amazon frigate, were held in a separate hall and provided with "good fresh beef, white bread and a bottle of good claret daily". They were also allowed to visit town in the morning and return in the evening.
Status or designation also seem to have been critical. Dillon was not officially classed as a POW and was denied the privileges that were afforded to captive officers. Both the French authorities and the British Admiralty refused to award him the pay he was due as they viewed him as an illegal detainee rather than a POW, despite the fact he was detained while on Admiralty business. Dillon did eventually get the money he was owed but not before his family had to sell an estate to cover his prison expenses.
Parole was also an important factor. Many paroled officers seem to have lived relatively comfortable lives at large in the community.
nodbear can tell you all about Captain Bergeret's extended stay with his captor, a certain Sir Edward Pellew. And Lieutenant Ben Littlehales of the Amazon was accommodated by Raymond de Lacrosse, captain of the Droits de L'Homme, the French 74 driven on shore and wrecked by the Amazon and the Indefatigable. Jackson's many escape attempts are variously helped and hindered by numerous paroled officers some of whom viewed his behavior as risky at best. Officers who broke parole were seen as being quite beyond the pale. Dillon refused to acknowledge a fellow POW on their return to England as the man had broken his parole. When Jackson is accused of breaking parole by a French officer he is affronted and argues that he has never been paroled and therefore is quite entitled to continue trying to do his duty to escape. Jackson is also aided and abetted by numerous French citizens during his repeated escape attempts. Their motivations for assisting "the enemy" are many and varied. Some, both common and aristocratic, are clearly in opposition to the revolutionary government, others have motivations closer to home. One man who helps Jackson has a son in prison in England and he hopes that if he helps Jackson to make it back to England he will plead for this son's release. However many people appear to have provided assistance to these escapees simply on the grounds of common humanity and desire to help a fellow man in need.
You also have to wonder about some of the guards though. Jackson writes of guards selling prisoners alcohol, opium and uniforms, all of which proved very handy when trying to escape!
Those who did break parole or who repeatedly attempted to escape were classed as deserters who had all the privileges afforded to POWs withdrawn, regardless of rank. Deserters were habitually chained and seem to have been treated as little more than common criminals.
eglantine_br noted that successful escapes usually involved groups of prisoners working together and Jackson's story certainly backs this up. However one man who escaped with Jackson was advised by friends to abandon him as they considered Jackson's ideas of escape as "too romantic”.In order to deal with the increasing numbers of prisoners held on both sides of the channel the British and French set up cartels to facilitate their exchange. In Britain these exchanges were managed by the Transport Board. Prisoners were exchanged for others of equal rank and
nodbear and I have seen short but moving letters written from Quimper prison by Robert Carthew Reyolds, captain of the Amazon where he talks of his despair that no suitable French prisoner has been found to enable his exchange. The circumstances of capture also had a significant impact on prisoners' chances of release or exchange. Those who were captured in brave or gallant action or who helped to save the lives of enemy crews at sea were often granted early release. This is essentially what happened to the officers and crew of the Amazon which was wrecked alongside the Droits de L'Homme.
In addition to exchange, I also believe that some POWs, particularly wealthy and aristocratic ones, could be ransomed by their families but to be honest I have no source for this.
So in answer to
eglantine_br's original question I think it's quite likely that if Archie made repeated attempts to escape he may have been classed as deserter. This would have resulted in the withdrawal of privileges and parole and it's likely that his name would not have appeared on lists of POWs put forward for exchange. Also if Archie's escape attempts were seen as being reckless or "romantic", which I'm sure after four attempts must increasingly have been the case, then it's quite possible that fellow prisoners would have wanted nothing to do with him. Poor Archie :( Thank goodness Hunter came and sat on him! Sorry this was supposed to be a short post but it got a bit out of hand :}
References
Anonymous, (1811), Escape from France: A narrative of the hardships and sufferings of several British subjects who effected their escape from Verdun. With an appendix, containing observations on the policy and conduct of Buonaparte towards British subjects, Vernor, Hood and Sharpe, Edinburgh.
Brett-Jones, A., Ed., (1981), Escape from the French. Captain Hewson's Narrative 1803-1809, Hodder and Stoughton, Exeter.
King, D. and Hattendorf, J.B., (1997), Every Man Will Do His Duty: An Anthology of First-hand Accounts from the Age of Nelson 1793 – 1815, Conway Maritime Press.
Report On Treatment of Prisoners of War, House of Commons Sessional Papers of the Eighteenth Century, Land Revenue, Prisoners of War, Fisheries, 1797-98, (118) 105 - 106.
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no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 07:39 pm (UTC)I wonder what it would take to make nodbear talk about that Pellew fellow, though...?
Hmmmm.....it's gonna be tough but if we ply her with enough tawny she might just be persuaded to talk ;)
I now want a Major "M´lord" Edrington fic with him residing in a French prison. :)
Oh aye? You do, do you?! Actually Jackson's account is very much how I would imagine Major M'Lord E to write. He has a very dry sarcastic sense of humour and his account is actually very funny despite the terrible experiences he clearly suffered.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 08:40 pm (UTC)Major M'Lord E is far too upper class to suffer. It's simply not the done thing!
*gets lost*
Shall we send a search party to come and dig you out?! Every Man Will Do His Duty is an excellent book btw, definitely worth bumping up your "to read" pile if you've got it.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 10:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-22 10:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 01:50 pm (UTC)Jacques Bergeret is an instance of the way in which officers often formed friendships based on mutual respect regardless of nation or political belief.
Csptured initially in the Virginie after a very well fought contest he enquired to whom he was surrendering and said " he takes everything, now he taken France's finest frigate ". As
years later when Sir Edward was admiral and C in C of the East india station one of his squadron captured a French ship and the Captain - Bergeret - was brought on board the Cullodento surrender. To the surprise of the crew the Admiral and the Captain threw their arms around each other, both in tears.
Bergeret and Pellew remained very good friends all their lives despite the fact that the former was a convinced Republican all his life and the latter a true monarchist Indeed Bergeret, who lived to be a very old man - dying only in the 1850s some twenty years after Pellew, extended his friendship to the next generations in the peace time that followed.
The third Viscount Exmouth, Pellew's grandson writes in some private family papers that , whenever he was in Paris, he would stay with Bergeret who was very kind and hospitable and full of fond labout his grandfather.
When Bergeret's nephew went into the French navy, Bergeret gave him a copy of Osler's life of Pellew telling him " you follow that example and you won't go wrong".
It was not the only time, by far, I think, that officers transcended the barriers that their countries imposed on them - but it is one of the most well documented.
Do I get my tawny now *looks hopeful*
no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 02:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 02:36 pm (UTC)i will also be back with fic -though of a hopelessly silly variety
lunacy as only a 1.45 am plot bunny can create
no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 07:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 08:00 pm (UTC)Dave
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 06:18 pm (UTC)Poor Archie. He is going to be so miserable.
A short aside. I am going to Massachusetts for all next week. For Thanksgiving. Internet may or may not work. I am going to try and write. That may or may not work.
I should be able to take pretty pictures of Marthas Vinyard. (Some people say it looks like Scotland, so maybe you don't need pictures of it!)
So I particularly appreciate the swift work you've done with my question.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 07:43 pm (UTC)I'd love to see some pictures of Martha's Vinyard, I've heard it's very pretty indeed but I didn't know that it's supposed to look like Scotland! Hope you have a lovely Thanksgiving :)
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 07:40 pm (UTC)I did find a somewhat interesting discussion, the 2nd page has a nice long post of interest, about Napoleonic prisoners, and a couple other books were recommended.
I think it's odd that prisoners were apparently just left to rot, rather than being put to work. I guess it was more trouble to keep watch over them than to just lock them away?
I had these romantic(?) ideas about Archie and other prisoners being used for gunnery practice in some way, having to move targets or somesuch, but it seems completely unbelievable. (I was trying to give him some reason for all the flinching at the cannons and being shot at.)
no subject
Date: 2010-11-20 08:08 pm (UTC)I remember reading somewhere about even officers being treated badly in one of the 'intake' prisons, on the coast, before ending up in Verdun.
Yes, that tallies with Jackson's account. Conditions in some of the smaller prisons seem to have been appalling whereas the big fortresses appear to have been a bit more civilised relatively speaking.
I guess it was more trouble to keep watch over them than to just lock them away?
I think so. Also if prisoners were kept under lock and key there was less chance of them spying.
I was trying to give him some reason for all the flinching at the cannons and being shot at
I think two years as a prisoner is quite sufficient reason to flinch at the sound of gunfire! Dillon actually mentions in passing an officer who committed suicide while imprisoned in France.
no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 05:00 am (UTC)I agree that circumstances of capture could effect the treatment a prisoner received.
Dave
no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 01:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 01:24 pm (UTC)In the matter of dear Jacques Bergeret - governments can be so ungallant it makes even a ex beach urchin like myself seem gentlemanly.
of course we had the fellow as our guest - charming man and brave too - but what must the French do but declare he is not grand enough to exchange for Sidney Smith and then our government if you please must throw him in prison - disgraceful conduct!
Of course when Sidney escaped they let him go- but we were tp see him again. that however is a story for another day.
Damned fine fellow - for a Republican...
no subject
Date: 2010-11-21 07:37 pm (UTC)How delightful to hear from you. Really, it has been too long entirely. Poor dear Captain Bergeret, he is is twice the man that scoundrel Smith ever was! I do believe however that France's loss was dear Susan's gain.
I remain as always your most obedt etc
Madam A
no subject
Date: 2010-11-26 10:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-26 10:31 pm (UTC)